Popular Podagogy Podcast: 'Nothing about us without us' neurodiversity in the classroom with Patty Douglas

Podcast Transcript

Intro Music: Talking about innovation in teaching and education, Popular Podagogy, discussions that are topical and sometimes philosophical. Popular Podagogy. Popular Podagogy.

CC: Hi there. Thanks for joining us, and welcome to another episode of Popular Podagogy, where we try to bring big ideas in teaching and education to life. I'm your host, Chris Carlton, and this podcast is being brought to you by the Faculty of Education at Queen's University. Welcome to our podcast. In this episode, I am excited to be speaking with Dr. Patty Douglas, who is an Associate Professor of Disability Studies and the inaugural Chair in Student Success and Wellness in the Faculty of Education. Here at Queen's University. We will be discussing neurodiversity affirming practices and how it can help your students and enhance your personal pedagogy. Patty's research focuses on reimagining educational practices and care in neurodiversity, affirming ways through critical decolonial and creative research. She is the director of Restoring Autism in Education, a multimedia storytelling project that brings together autistic students, family, and educators in Canada, England and New Zealand to rethink education in ways that desire the difference of autism. She is currently publishing her book on mothering, autism, Ethical Disruptions and Affirming Care with UBC press. Patty is also a former special education teacher in Ontario and British Columbia. She identifies as neurodivergent and is a mother of two sons, one of whom is autistic. Patty, welcome to our podcast.

PD: Thanks so much for having me here. I'm excited to come and chat with you today.

CC: I am so excited as well. Patty, as I was reading through your Queen's profile and all the other things I found online about you, the accolades of your research, I noticed the focus on neurodiversity affirming practices and especially regarding restoring autism and education, which really caught my eye. I know our listeners will enjoy hearing more about it, so let's start right off with you telling us a bit more about your research and why it's important to you.

PD: Sure. I'll start with the story of why I'm a researcher at all. As you said, I was a special education teacher enjoying my classrooms in Ontario and in British Columbia for a little while. And, you know, I could have just stayed in the classroom, but what I started to observe and notice the further I went as a special education teacher and as a mom of an autistic son in the system, was that students were struggling, and teachers were struggling. And there were things happening in the schools that I was very uncomfortable with. So, teacher talk that was negative, also I saw restraints happening and didn't think they needed to happen. In general I don't think there was anybody who was doing anything intentional, but we didn't know how to respond to difference at the time. And so I decided to go back and do my PhD because I had a fire in my belly to try to support families, students, and teachers who were struggling with different students who were sort of occupying space and time in the classroom a little bit differently. So, I have these two questions that drive. So, I sort of got that that fire in my belly driving me to understand how we can have a more affirming context and feeling when we're teaching. And really what drives me is I wanted to understand how we got to the place where that was sort of a common response to students who were, you know, struggling in the classroom, acting out in the classroom, what we might call behavior and why that behavior was being responded to in the way that it was.

PD: And so the questions I came to ask in my research were, you know, how did we get here? And so I look at all sorts of histories and, and do what is called genealogy. I kind of trace how we came to understand difference in deficit ways within Western cultures. And then I do a more creative side of things and ask, what are the conditions in which all students can thrive and flourish? And so that's where the Restoring Autism Project comes in. I started the project in 2016, after I did a postdoctoral study with Karla Rice at the Revision Center for Art and Social Justice, where I learned multimedia storytelling. I really believe that story has the power to change worlds and to change hearts and minds. And so what we do on the project is we bring together autistic students, family and educators from all those places you mentioned. And those places have emerged as my relationships have emerged with different groups of folks in those places. And we come together and we ask what story students, families, and educators most need to tell about school, about education. And we're really interested in what we call disability love stories. So are there quiet knowledges that all of those groups have about a different way to respond to difference that is more affirming? And so that's how we've come to neurodiversity affirming practice through those storytelling workshops.

CC: I absolutely love. I'm going to start. I've been scribbling notes here as fast as I can. Patty, as you've been talking.

PD: Sure.

CC: I love the fire in your belly because that's why I became a teacher as well. I became a teacher at age 40, so I went back to school because I saw a need or a desire to help change the education system. But I love your questions that you said, how did we get here? Because it's always it's not always intentional. It's just the tools that might not be available. But then how do we get to the point where all students can thrive and flourish? And I think that's the desire of all students, all teachers, where we want all of our students to be able to thrive and flourish. And then you talked about the disability love stories, which I think is just an amazing sound to it. And the fact that his story has the power to change lives through storytelling. And I'm excited to do more research about that. And through some of your resources that you're providing to us as well. Now, I have to admit, when I first started looking at your profile and your research, I did have to look up neurodiversity affirming practices. I knew from the title what it was basically about. But could you tell us, our listeners and myself a little bit more about how it works?

PD: Sure.

PD: So I will have to back up a little bit and set it up a little bit so that we can get to the point of, you know, what is this thing called neurodiversity affirming practice? We shift in this approach from something called the medical model of disability, which all of us are familiar with and really it underpins education, but education is going through a sea change. So that medical model of disability focuses on individuals, individual students, and really looks at, you know, what's wrong with that student and what's sort of broken in terms or disrupted or disordered in terms of development and skills, and then sets about to make an intervention. So sort of what do we do to remediate that difference? So that might be, you know, things that are common, for example, around neurodiversity, if a student is stimming in the classroom, we might look at that as a problem. And we might in the past have tried to intervene in that in all sorts of ways to correct that behavior, because through a kind of, you know, the lens that we've inherited, that deficit medical model, that's not normal behavior that's going to interrupt with learning. Those are the assumptions that we carry just because we've been we have these legacies, these sort of deficit legacies in education. And so we shift in a neurodiversity affirming practice to something called the social model of disability, which teachers will be familiar with if they think of universal design for learning and strengths based approaches. So we shift to that social model and we locate disability in the environment. That means that if a student needs to stim to pay attention, we create the conditions in which that stimming is welcome in our classroom.

PD: And we have to really work with that discomfort we might carry. You know, even though I'm neurodivergent myself and my son is autistic, and I think my other son's probably neurodivergent, too, that can feel a little bit uncomfortable. But, you know, we can get to a place in which we might desire that disruption of disability, you know, and learn from that difference because we all have them. So I, you know, always what comes to mind for me is a student in my grade five classroom who needed to walk up and down, pace, while we were doing lessons because he could listen better if he looked at that little space between the window and where the wall meets the window. And just kind of that was his stim, and that allowed him to come in and listen and learn. That looks and feels different. That's a different way to be together. And so that shift to the social, sort of the social model of disability and a strengths based approach as part of neurodiversity affirming practice. I think the other part that maybe goes a little further than strengths based is that these recognitions and practices really come out of disability activism, disability rights movements, autistic self-advocacy movements and so we're really centering the knowledge and experience of disabled and autistic students themselves. And I am using identity first language. You might notice because it's in alignment with lots of the groups that I work with. And there's sort of studies that have been done through different sort of Autism Alliance of Canada has done a recent study that really shows the preference for identity first language by many disabled and autistic people.

CC: Hey, there is so much there and it's just amazing. I'm just looking at my notes here and we go from medical model to social model UDL, which most teachers totally understand. But then talking about centering the knowledge of autism students of themselves and that's one thing that is all through your research, the restoring and about the project. That the first part of the team members are the autistic people, that's the key. And then you add in the makers, the artists, the researchers, the educators, family and kin, practitioners. So they are the center, which is absolutely where it should be. And it just makes sense now when you start talking about it. The other part that I absolutely love is you talk about the lens that we have inherited. And I think that's the thing that we need to have that growth mindset with our pedagogy as well. And like you said, learn from these differences and look at opportunities just to make everything so much better for all of our students, but especially for our neurodivergent students as well.

PD: Absolutely. Sorry.

PD: Go ahead.

CC: So we talk about the actual process or the activity. So what are some of the ideas that we can actually bring into our classroom to help facilitate this?

PD: I Think that what you just summarized for us really hits on one of the big ones for me in our practice. So we've been doing my autistic colleague and I, Ryan Shields, who's a phenomenal child and youth worker, did her master's in critical disability studies at York University. She and I really developed all sorts of different kinds of workshops that we do with teachers and districts and EAs and others. We've been starting to have invitations from clinicians as well. Also out of my work with Carla Rice as well in the storytelling workshops themselves. So out of those places have come principles of neurodiversity affirming practice that we bring to the center and work with teachers around. The first one that really relates to your comment is nothing about us without us. So this is a slogan that comes out, or a saying that comes out of disability activism, comes out of racial justice movements, and it really means that we put autistic, disabled, neurodivergent students at the center of everything we do. And so although this isn't a handy like, I'll disappoint perhaps the listeners in some ways because I don't offer sort of step one, step two, step three kinds of approaches. But what this says is that if you start with nothing about us without us, that means in all your planning and all your meetings, in all your everything you do, that's your first principle that you're beginning with.

PD: And so, you know, one thing that's emerged that I would love to help students or sorry, help teachers be part of is this idea of community of practice that actually includes autistic and disabled students at the center. So in my research communities of practice, which are, you know, might ask, you know, ask a question around a common interest that people want to learn together. Might ask, you know, how can I practice neurodiversity, affirming practice? Or how can we appreciate difference in the classroom? And those communities of practice? Everything that I've read start with families and teachers and exclude the actual people that, you know, were actually trying to create the conditions in which everyone can thrive and so on the project, we have a collective called the Restoring Autism Collective, and that's a collective of autistic students, artists and, and activists who come together and ask those questions. What does belonging mean? What kind of research do we want to do? They advise my project in their directions, like it really putting autistic and neurodivergent folks at the center. And so I would say, you know, look for opportunities where those clubs or communities of practice might emerge. Don't be afraid of talking about it and making mistakes with the language, all of that kind of thing, so that we can really put the focus on, you know, the folks that we care about and are doing all this hard work for. Yeah.

CC: That's my new sign I'm putting up in my office right now. Nothing about us without us. That is absolutely brilliant. It sort of encapsulates everything you've been talking about, making sure that the conversation includes the people that you're trying to have the conversation about which I think is amazing. So that's our first principle. And then the community of practice, making sure that that you are part of that community so that you can work with them. Now, I've got to ask, I love the idea of the storytelling, are those available to view the storytelling videos or is that something?

PD: Absolutely.

PD: There are galleries on my website, so that project website is simply www.restorying autism.com and there are a number of galleries up there where teachers and other listeners can go and check out the stories we do. We don't sort of make all of them available all of the time, but we do come with different stories. And I you know, almost always present with an autistic colleague or with the stories and we frame them very carefully because they're all love stories to us. But absolutely, yes, they're available there as well as in some of the articles that we've written, will sort of do some thinking around what those stories teach us. So we really, you know, listen deeply, which I think is perhaps another beginning point in our classrooms that goes with nothing about us without us.

CC: And I think that phrase you just mentioned listen deeply is very, very powerful as well. I'm looking forward to taking a look at those. We're going to provide all that information on our website so that Patty, they can access that. I have a traditional last question, but it's been answered. I always ask one final question, one final tip from you. You want to try to answer in two sentences or less, and I think I can do that for you. It I'm not going to. But the two last things we talked about. So if you could just rephrase what as a teacher wanting to get passionately involved in this, just give us sort of that one thing that that we should be looking for.

PD: Sure. I would start with the one new thing, which is let yourself pause and take a bit of space to allow a different approach to difference to bubble up. Be curious. Start with nothing about us without us and tell new love stories. So we do. I'll stop there, I have so much more I could share, but I'll let people explore.

CC: I think we're going to have to do a part two. Patty. And just the let yourself pause that is so powerful and be curious. And that's what we need. That's that growth mindset. That's that trying to make our pedagogy that much better. Just amazing. Patty, this has been so enlightening for me. And it's really it's put a fire in my belly as well to do more research on this. And I just want to thank you so much for sharing your passion. It's so obvious and sharing your research. It's such an exciting and important topic, and one that I'm sure our listeners will definitely want to look further into. And now can, because we'll be putting your information up on our website as well. Patty, thank you so much for taking the time to join us today. I really appreciate it.

PD: Thanks so much for having me. This was a lot of fun. I'd love to come back.

CC: Definitely. That does it for another episode of Popular Pedagogy. Again, thank you to our guest, doctor Patty Douglas. Josh, as always, where can our listeners subscribe to make sure they don't miss any of our Popular Podagogy podcasts?

Outro: Yeah. You can find this podcast on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, the Faculty of Education website, and pretty much any other place you get your podcasts.

CC: Please don't forget to check out our Queen's Faculty of Education website and search for Popular Pedagogy for additional resources and information on this important topic. Well, that's it for myself, Chris Carlton, and our incredibly talented and resourceful podcast team of Josh Vine and Erin York. Stay healthy, stay safe and stay connected, and we will see you next time for another episode of Popular Podagogy.